Thoughts on Builds and Warband Composition

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Morjax
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Thoughts on Builds and Warband Composition

Postby Morjax » 01 December 2016, 18:12

Giving some thoughts to Undead warband ocmposition, and gearing up to make some related build guides. I made a poor choice to make my dreg melee, and my thrall ranged, which is the opposite of what their both suited for X|

There's a lot of different ways you could take the warband, depending on how you like to play:
  • The "Pull My Finger" warband: Two poison wind globadiers and all else are undead units (vampire, 2 thralls, 2 globadiers, 5 zeds). Then sling poison with impunity. You can stack poison globes on choke points. Something like rank 5 you'll get two globes per round per globadier. I believe you get 9OP, e.g. three globes per round per globadier at max rank. Consider the poison stacks with 6 globes per round... Note that with infused globes, they can also splash healing to everyone in a 5m radius at the cost of some debuffs. This affects allies and enemies, so careful with placement.
  • The "Critical Opinions" warband. Build your thralls to be melee crit monsters and dregs to be ranged crit factories. Ranged crit chance with ranged thrall is 40%/44%/48% each round with successful Vital Shots, and crit chance with Thrall is 41%/51%61% for vital strikes. This is a minimum chance of 78.4% chance to crit at least once with the dreg and minimum chance to crit at least once with the thrall of 79.5%. Max chances (given that you hit with every attack) are 82.5% and 88.7% to crit at least once a round for ranged and melee, respectively. I have build videos coming out on these two today and tomorrow.
  • The "Uncle BadTouch" Warband. Five ghouls with single handed weapons and counter attack skills to force as many attacks per round as possible, stacking their Disease Carrier debuffs. Two necromancers with mastered Rotten Touch which synergizes with the ghoul's Disease Carrier debuffs. Each disease carrier debuff lasts 3 turns and increases the bad touch by 5% apiece. Careful about curse chances...
  • The "28 days later" build (thanks for the eye-opener, GamekNight!). Zombies get 11 (!) movement per blue pill/SP. Train enough intelligence so they get knowledge mordheim basic (4->5 movement). Get two necromancers, one with mastered Call of Vanhel (5->9 movement), one with basic Call of Vanhel (9->11 movement) so they stack. Your zombies will be the fastest dead guys on the block.
Do you have thoughts on other builds? Are there any build videos you'd like to see?

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crimsonsun
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Re: Thoughts on Builds and Warband Composition

Postby crimsonsun » 06 December 2016, 13:01

The Pull my Finger Build: In theory that's wonderful but you can do a ton better, I've got a rank ten globe Thrower in my Undead Warband now who drops down his globes in the combat but his main role is running just behind the main line and using mastered Vent. 2OP to cripple the enemies Melee resistance. He's built with defensive Stance Mastery, Fatality Mastery and Swarm Mastery with a 30-40% critical chance, so is not afraid to get stuck in if needs must either but his key jobs are, venting, poison and healing.

The Critical Opinions - Where are you getting these Critical chances from, Thralls have a max Accuracy 9, which seriously doesn't suggest to me critical monster you can't even master Fatality. So not sure where your putting this build together but I'm not seeing it. Vampire Leaders however with Mastered Worked Great Swords and Assault Mastery have 50 odd % critical chance on the charge... However the only critical build I feel I'd rely on is found in a Witch Hunter Warband, via the Executioner supported by a Ulric priest that combo gives 80% Critical's (110% if the priest attacks first) with critical hits bringing 400-600 damage each (Scary shit!).

The uncle Bad Touch: I'm still not convinced the damage on that spell is correct, I'm also somewhat confused by the Necromancers spell list in terms of Curse Chance and Casting difficulty as it doesn't feel like it levels like the normal casters do. 5 Ghouls are great in theory but not being able to disengage is huge and will cost you long term, they are also unable to use parry builds which makes them poor defensive units. 2 Ghouls with great Weapons, Step Aside, Eye See you, Prowl, avoid however are fantastic as back up damage dealers and rear cover. If your going to go down this route though you might want to consider a Doomweaver. using the Icon of change you can cast 4x per caster, then switch to a bow and fire two shots, making 6 ranged attacks with 30-60 damage each.

The Eye Opener: Again I'm not convinced that spending 4OP per Zombie is a healthy turn around for what it brings as really you need to spam these two spells across multiple Zombies each round. What I've not seen mentioned elsewhere however is the combo of Corpse Flesh Mastery, Rune of Iron and Mastered Van Hals, Purple Cloth, Purple Helm, Purple Shield, and Web of Steel. 70% Armour, +4 Movement + 30% Critical Resistance, 108% parry Chance, melee Resistance 50ish %. Now that's a Wall of Flesh in my opinion.. Just saying.

Suggested Build - The Cabal of Death
Necromancer Leader, 2x Necromancers, 2 x DoomWeavers, 5x Zombies... Necromancer Leader mixes magic buffs & Leadership abilities (Order, Coordination, retreat) also has heart Attack Mastery for Offensive debuffing. Two Necromancers, Life Stealer, rotting flesh, spell of Doom, vanhals, bows for back up, these guys lay down a bombardment. 1 Doom Weaver designed with Icon of Change, Icon of Blood, Icon of Lust, and there basic spell mastered, combat skills, Ritual of Scorn Mastered beyond channelling however he defends the coven sitting just behind the zombies and puts down the Icon of change to reduce casting costs and the Icon of blood to allow them to heal, and his starting spell to cripple enemy parry tanks, lust for defence and the ritual of Scorn to cripple enemy damage. The Second Doom Weaver, Mastered AoE Armour Debuff, Mastered Burning blood, Mastered Daub of hatred, Purple Rune of concentration (staff is purple spell binding on all casters). Inside the Icon 3 spells per turn that cause 40-60 damage with repeated damage or a 20% Armour reduction on targets. Both Doomweavers take Cauterise. Then 5 Zombies built as combat tanks.

There's some nasty tricks in this, not only is your front line healing itself, the combo of Armour Reduction, damage reduction, heart Attack, and mastered boon of ruin is horrific. Every counter attack is going to cripple a fighters active pool, they have pathetic damage and you can put 70% armour along with +50% critical resistance where you need it the most. If the defensive Doomweaver starts imploding that's not a bad thing your zombies are as resistant to crit's, stuns and immune to open wounds while the Doomweavers can repair there own wounds. Most Enemy warbands would be extremely hard pressed to manage AoE stuns and Open wounds if repeated and the damage laid down by your ranged casters is pretty sickening you can lay down 360 points of damage ignoring armour in a 10 yard circle every round with OP to spare from a range of 40 yards, one turn of magical bombardment and the enemy warband couldl be down to as low as 15% health. Its scary but would require excellent positioning and perfect timing but you could in a perfect situation 1 turn an entire full strength rank 10 warband that wasn't prepared for such a build (crippling with the magic attack zombies mop up).
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Morjax
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Re: Thoughts on Builds and Warband Composition

Postby Morjax » 06 December 2016, 15:42

Thanks as always for the awesome thoughts, Crim ^_^
The Pull my Finger Build: In theory that's wonderful but you can do a ton better, I've got a rank ten globe Thrower in my Undead Warband now who drops down his globes in the combat but his main role is running just behind the main line and using mastered Vent. 2OP to cripple the enemies Melee resistance. He's built with defensive Stance Mastery, Fatality Mastery and Swarm Mastery with a 30-40% critical chance, so is not afraid to get stuck in if needs must either but his key jobs are, venting, poison and healing.
I'll have to take a closer look at vent. I hadn't pegged it as that strong, but then again, I take a great cathartic pleasure in throwing a huge number of poison bombs :twisted: At the risk of starting a broken record train, I'd love to make a video, provided a build link :D
The Critical Opinions - Where are you getting these Critical chances from, Thralls have a max Accuracy 9, which seriously doesn't suggest to me critical monster you can't even master Fatality. So not sure where your putting this build together but I'm not seeing it. Vampire Leaders however with Mastered Worked Great Swords and Assault Mastery have 50 odd % critical chance on the charge... However the only critical build I feel I'd rely on is found in a Witch Hunter Warband, via the Executioner supported by a Ulric priest that combo gives 80% Critical's (110% if the priest attacks first) with critical hits bringing 400-600 damage each (Scary shit!).
Here's the builds I'm working with there: one hand version; two hand version. Book of accuracy is how you push to 12 Acc to get the mastery of fatality and underdog. Not ideal, but the build still stands (just not as strongly) without it. That is some terrifying stuff with the executioner. Link to builds for priest and executioner? I'd love to make some videos on that SERIOUS scariness ^_^
The uncle Bad Touch: I'm still not convinced the damage on that spell is correct, I'm also somewhat confused by the Necromancers spell list in terms of Curse Chance and Casting difficulty as it doesn't feel like it levels like the normal casters do. 5 Ghouls are great in theory but not being able to disengage is huge and will cost you long term, they are also unable to use parry builds which makes them poor defensive units. 2 Ghouls with great Weapons, Step Aside, Eye See you, Prowl, avoid however are fantastic as back up damage dealers and rear cover. If your going to go down this route though you might want to consider a Doomweaver. using the Icon of change you can cast 4x per caster, then switch to a bow and fire two shots, making 6 ranged attacks with 30-60 damage each.
Thanks for the thoughts. I don't like casters that much, and am therefore not super at building them ;) I like your thoughts there with doomweaver. Would that ll be boon or ruin, then?
The Eye Opener: Again I'm not convinced that spending 4OP per Zombie is a healthy turn around for what it brings as really you need to spam these two spells across multiple Zombies each round. What I've not seen mentioned elsewhere however is the combo of Corpse Flesh Mastery, Rune of Iron and Mastered Van Hals, Purple Cloth, Purple Helm, Purple Shield, and Web of Steel. 70% Armour, +4 Movement + 30% Critical Resistance, 108% parry Chance, melee Resistance 50ish %. Now that's a Wall of Flesh in my opinion.. Just saying.
I'll take another look at corpse flesh as well! Just like vent, I'd not given it a fair shake, it seems ;)
Suggested Build - The Cabal of Death
Necromancer Leader, 2x Necromancers, 2 x DoomWeavers, 5x Zombies... Necromancer Leader mixes magic buffs & Leadership abilities (Order, Coordination, retreat) also has heart Attack Mastery for Offensive debuffing. Two Necromancers, Life Stealer, rotting flesh, spell of Doom, vanhals, bows for back up, these guys lay down a bombardment. 1 Doom Weaver designed with Icon of Change, Icon of Blood, Icon of Lust, and there basic spell mastered, combat skills, Ritual of Scorn Mastered beyond channelling however he defends the coven sitting just behind the zombies and puts down the Icon of change to reduce casting costs and the Icon of blood to allow them to heal, and his starting spell to cripple enemy parry tanks, lust for defence and the ritual of Scorn to cripple enemy damage. The Second Doom Weaver, Mastered AoE Armour Debuff, Mastered Burning blood, Mastered Daub of hatred, Purple Rune of concentration (staff is purple spell binding on all casters). Inside the Icon 3 spells per turn that cause 40-60 damage with repeated damage or a 20% Armour reduction on targets. Both Doomweavers take Cauterise. Then 5 Zombies built as combat tanks.

There's some nasty tricks in this, not only is your front line healing itself, the combo of Armour Reduction, damage reduction, heart Attack, and mastered boon of ruin is horrific. Every counter attack is going to cripple a fighters active pool, they have pathetic damage and you can put 70% armour along with +50% critical resistance where you need it the most. If the defensive Doomweaver starts imploding that's not a bad thing your zombies are as resistant to crit's, stuns and immune to open wounds while the Doomweavers can repair there own wounds. Most Enemy warbands would be extremely hard pressed to manage AoE stuns and Open wounds if repeated and the damage laid down by your ranged casters is pretty sickening you can lay down 360 points of damage ignoring armour in a 10 yard circle every round with OP to spare from a range of 40 yards, one turn of magical bombardment and the enemy warband could be down to as low as 15% health. Its scary but would require excellent positioning and perfect timing but you could in a perfect situation 1 turn an entire full strength rank 10 warband that wasn't prepared for such a build (crippling with the magic attack zombies mop up).
I am liking that a great deal (and I'd expect nothing less than this sort of excellence coming from a grand build-meister like yourself :P)
How long does heart failure last? It's listed on pyrospace as a 0 turn duration... With mastery, that's a 50% chance to lose 2 OP AND SP, which is gross. There is so much going on with this build that I'll have to spend some time digesting it. Super intense synergy going on here :shock:

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crimsonsun
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Re: Thoughts on Builds and Warband Composition

Postby crimsonsun » 06 December 2016, 18:58

Thanks as always for the awesome thoughts, Crim ^_^
No worries, I forgot to say this is all just opinion anyway so there's no right or wrong answer.
I'll have to take a closer look at vent. I hadn't pegged it as that strong, but then again, I take a great cathartic pleasure in throwing a huge number of poison bombs :twisted: At the risk of starting a broken record train, I'd love to make a video, provided a build link :D
I actually find globe throwers one of the most difficult fighters to build because they suffer so much from have such a wide variety of good options that its easy to get caught up and end up with a very shallow build that kinda blows at higher ranks. I'll post my current build though
http://www.pyrospace.co.uk/mordheim/#ey ... l0aWVzIl19

Its far from perfect however, as I said I don't find these guys easy to build as I always feel I'm missing something and I need to make better use of the character planner before committing to a build. Vent isn't something I'd say is normally that great because it affects enemies and allies alike but because Undead are so poison immune you can Vent away freely without concern this is fairly huge -20% to melee and ranged attacks for the effected, which when you add defensive stance and his 60% (rune of shielding) melee resistance makes a 100% melee resistance for a non melee fighter... not at all bad...
Here's the builds I'm working with there: one hand version; two hand version. Book of accuracy is how you push to 12 Acc to get the mastery of fatality and underdog. Not ideal, but the build still stands (just not as strongly) without it. That is some terrifying stuff with the executioner. Link to builds for priest and executioner? I'd love to make some videos on that SERIOUS scariness ^_^
I'm still working on this, its more theory as I found Witch Hunters fairly uninspiring after a while (try as I might I'm just not built to play good guys), however I'd love to pull it together at some point. Your Vampires seem fairly good, have you thought about going with Hit and Run Charges using Great Swords instead?
http://www.pyrospace.co.uk/mordheim/#ey ... IjpbXX0%3D Is a rough example though I just made that quickly, my Leader is built along those lines and is brutal, though he has Step Aside Mastery with Avoid mastery as he's naturally more effective at dealing damage.

OK so Executioner:
http://www.pyrospace.co.uk/mordheim#eyJ ... JdfQ%3D%3D

With the Ulric Priest:
http://www.pyrospace.co.uk/mordheim/#ey ... VscmljIiwi

Its the priest that really makes this build viable and once you start stacking those bonuses it gets stupid..

If you really wanted to go overboard then add this guy to boost your damage further...
http://www.pyrospace.co.uk/mordheim/#ey ... JdfQ%3D%3D
The uncle Bad Touch: I'm still not convinced the damage on that spell is correct, I'm also somewhat confused by the Necromancers spell list in terms of Curse Chance and Casting difficulty as it doesn't feel like it levels like the normal casters do. 5 Ghouls are great in theory but not being able to disengage is huge and will cost you long term, they are also unable to use parry builds which makes them poor defensive units. 2 Ghouls with great Weapons, Step Aside, Eye See you, Prowl, avoid however are fantastic as back up damage dealers and rear cover. If your going to go down this route though you might want to consider a Doomweaver. using the Icon of change you can cast 4x per caster, then switch to a bow and fire two shots, making 6 ranged attacks with 30-60 damage each.
Thanks for the thoughts. I don't like casters that much, and am therefore not super at building them ;) I like your thoughts there with doomweaver. Would that ll be boon or ruin, then?
Yeah Boon of Ruin I looked it up later, that ability is just so good.
I'll take another look at corpse flesh as well! Just like vent, I'd not given it a fair shake, it seems ;)
I think for me the most confusing aspect is the poison resistance which is kinda lost and I really look for AoE buffs as a rule much like those used by the Vampire Dramatis Persona but the potential stacking of Armour and Critical resistance is very powerful in my mind.
Suggested Build - The Cabal of Death....
I am liking that a great deal (and I'd expect nothing less than this sort of excellence coming from a grand build-meister like yourself :P)
How long does heart failure last? It's listed on pyrospace as a 0 turn duration... With mastery, that's a 50% chance to lose 2 OP AND SP, which is gross. There is so much going on with this build that I'll have to spend some time digesting it. Super intense synergy going on here :shock:
I'm fairly sure Heart Failure is for a round until you act again, but annoyingly the effects and tests are behind the scenes so I've got no real way of knowing how many tests are being taken, though I am under the impression its one for every athletics or attack action taken during the round between your actions.

Honestly that build is more a bit of fun than anything else because magic's so unreliable I don't feel you could comfortably pull everything off. I know for a fact that there's no chance I'd be able to do it in a PvP environment because I'm just not a good enough player in the moment. Glad you enjoyed this all however and Thanks for reading;

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Re: Thoughts on Builds and Warband Composition

Postby crimsonsun » 13 December 2016, 08:17

Just to confirm Heart Attack is until the casters next turn, its actually horrible, though its potency increases with the Rank of the Target, and again by type Impressive Warriors are ruined by this spell, Leaders and casters hate it, Tanking Heroes cry, Critical specialists or Massive DPS builds using Daredevil aren't as phased, Ranged Bows > crossbows > Pistols > two handed firearms with the latter being least worried. Henchman tanks aren't so worried anything more skirmish based is crushed. Why - Because the effect is instant, and stacks. So if you normally make 5 2 OP strikes with your impressive you'll likely be reduced to 2.5 per turn and touch and go if you can enter a 4SP stance or not. You can't even stance up and wait to counter because stances force tests as do counters. With only 7 SP Heroes get ruined if they trigger it twice, no step aside, defensive stance or Web of Steel for you..

If you can't tell I'm seriously impressed with this spell! Only downside is there's nothing in the log when it triggers, so you don't really see how horrible it is until you get hit by it and are left at around 1/3 of functionality, god even the 25% version is horrible. Boon of Ruin, Warp/Numbing Posion, Crippling/Pinning Shot, Gaze of the Seer, Chains of Chaos (this one is such a good combo) will make it worse, but its AoE anyway so you can easily hit 3-5 targets at 40 odd yards literally reducing half the enemy warband to 1/3 of its OP/SP allowance.

As an aside Dregs make wonderful Critical Damage dealers, with higher Accuracy than a Vampire & Higher Strength they can easily carve though foes, I have two melee parry heroes with runes of misfortune that I use to bring down critical ratings then bring in one of my big hitters (Leader/Dreg) to dish out 200 damage critical hits, its very effective.
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deggiera
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Re: Thoughts on Builds and Warband Composition

Postby deggiera » 18 December 2016, 07:40

That ulric priest link isnt working for me :( @crimsonsun

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