Questions about AI, tactics and mechanics

General discussion with other Mordheim: City of the Damned players.

Questions about AI, tactics and mechanics

Postby dereck_rickit » 25 November 2016, 18:29

1: I gathered that as soon as one of my soldiers is spotted by any enemy, their whole warband goes to try and attack me...

What do they do before that? Are they going after warp stones, spreading out to search for me, or concentrating their forces together?

Am I better off hugging edges of the map and trying to hide so they spread out, or should I instead rush the center to start the actual fight before they gather themselves together?

2: Warpstones - I noticed that gathering warpstones is pretty dangerous before the fight due to the debuffs. Picking up 4 gives me a non-insignificant chance of my soldier taking damage 20+ dmg, and/or getting a serious debuff for several turns. The damage seems minor but when my general strategy is to just avoid combat, that means I am also running around and climbing and stuff and together with failed climbing and jumping, that damage adds up. Plus the warpstones are often in the open, which is where I am most likely to be seen and engaged - when that happens after I just piled on a bunch of debuffs on myself - shitty situation.

The question is - a) Is waiting for them to pick it up and than scavenging their corpses mid fight a viable tactic? What about circling around the edge of the map and beelining for their cart after I see that a bunch of stones were picked up - does the enemy gather the stones and run them back to their cart like I do?

b) when I win the battle I get some of the loot from the field - does that include the stones in inventory of still surviving enemies? The few times I lost the battle, I don't think I got any of the stuff my survivors were carrying..

c) does AI ever try to rob your cart? I start getting anxious about leaving it unprotected after a few drop offs..

3: Warband mirroring - do they mirror me just by numbers, or by classes as well? How exact is it? Like if I bring Mercs with 4 archer henchmen and happen to fight other mercs - are they going to have exactly 4 archers as well? Or if undead for example - 4 ghouls to match my archers?

4: Leaving path of retreat for when they panic and run - Several times I thought I did that yet they didn't run.

a) How big of a radius should I be trying to leave them?

b) Is it just the radius or do they need a free path to run a fair distance as well? Does the flee action trigger Ambushes and Overwatch?

c) Are ambush areas by my other goes considered as impediment that would prevent fleeing?

5: All Alone check - does the difficulty for the enemy increase when there are more then 2 people on him?

6: There is a section on the Wiki about Neutral enemies "such as demons" -

a) are there other kind of Neutrals I might encounter?

b) Demons only show up on missions with Brutal and Deadly difficulty regardless of my warband rank/rating or does difficulty cut off point scale?

7: Skills that make enemy take a leadership test - does the DC of that test depend on the characteristics of the unit using the skill? Like if I give my Zombie guy who has leadership 1 or 3 (i forget) the Insult skill to try and trigger enemy attacks before my leader goes in - is the chance to succeed same as if my Vampire used such a skill?

8: I want to try out all the skills, but not sure what's good/fun etc... Searching suggested builds - they all seem to focus on just a few skills. In my game right now I roll 2D20 to pick the next skill to learn - recipe for disaster at higher levels or just recipe for non-overpowered warband at the end?

9: In campaign, do you end up encountering same enemy warbands?

I noticed that when any of my soldiers get a critical hit with a stun, they roll for an injury at the end of combat even if they weren't downed.

a) In the long term is it going to be useful for me to try for weapons and skills that increase chance of critical and subsequent stuns, with the aim of inflicting as many permanent injuries on enemy warband members to make future combats easier?

b) Does chance of an injury increase the more times a warrior gets stunned or is 3X Stunned + OoA = same as just OoA?

10: Does AI ever use Perception action and actively avoid traps? Is it ever viable to try to lure them into traps? Do same traps ever trigger twice? (if Yes is it the same effect?) - one combat I happened upon a trap that inflicted 2 turn -25 % to hit in melee on my Vampire leader just as he was running up to a bunch of engaged enemies with his 2 hander sword... something like that could be useful to get an enemy to walk through if it could be predicted.

11: Is it ever worth using a Parry/Dodge stance vs Ambush on an Unengaged enemy? My chances on those actions are usually below 50, but if the enemy's chances of hitting on a charge are similiar to mine, it seems like I would be trading a low chance to avoid a hit at risk of much higher chance the enemy will inflict 50% more damage... Plus if I get stunned on that first hit, won't even get a chance to use any of my saved up action points...

12: Do people even use Reserve slots?

In my first campaign I figured paying a bit extra upkeep vs. skipping turns to wait out injuries and missing out on potentially hundreds of gold in profit - just good trade off.

Than I found the whole mirroring mechanic and most advice topics confirm it - the game is just so much easier when you bring small warbands - easier to loot unnoticed, easier to do side objectives like Marked for Death etc...

I've been trying not to outright cheat with this so far... but now that I am deploying 7 soldiers vs enemy 7, I am finding that not getting noticed within first turn is practically impossible. No time to loot etc...

So ok - playing hard mode, trying not to cheat, still hiring extra guys to try to field max number while some are healing and training... But also worrying about future upkeep costs

So assuming I end up with all slots filled, reserves included - how screwed am I going to be on upkeep when I progress to high levels?

13: I don't understand the point of the cart Idol feature - duration is so short that Wyrdstone resistance does nothing as the buff wears off before I am likely get to pick up any. (I've yet to get a deployment where my cart was that close to patches of stones - though the enemy once had their cart literally 3 SP from a field of 15+ nodes) Same for All Alone buff - if I am fighting multiple enemies by my cart, it's going to be because my guys were caught there together and they won't need All Alone buff. If fighting elsewhere, the buff will be gone by the time I reach it.

When is the Idol ever useful than?

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Re: Questions about AI, tactics and mechanics

Postby Jisur » 26 November 2016, 01:41

That is allot of question :D

I will do my best....

1. It varies, sometimes they gather wyrdstones but most of the time they just run towards your warbands cart. Once they spot you they attack. The AI tends to try to attack the weakest member of your gang.

I think the most important rule is to have your warband together. There are allot of tactics invovled and depends on how you want to play. You can turtle forward slowly and safely. This often gives you a chance to isolate fast moving heros and jump them with all you got.

2. Warpstones can give all kind of debuff but good buffs as well. 3+ movement for example! If you are afraid of this you can get some skill that increese your wyrdstone resistance and if the wyrdstone is close to your cart praying to your idol increeses resistance by x% depending on your warband rank.

a) Wyrdstone is important so I do pick it up. I personally dont bother with the fragments unless I am forfilling the secondary objective of wyrdstone rush. I often have 2 henchmen that I build dodge defencivly for the sole purpose of picking up wyrdstone.

b) On your victory screen there is a line that says victory rewards and has a icon of the three types of wyrdstone and tresure chest as well. This is what you get extra on top of what you scavanged that mission. The number on the tresure chest means items and they will be displayed after your warband members progression. I am pretty sure that what you get has nothing to do what your enemy warband is carrying but I may be wrong.
Unless it is a story mission everything you loot and have on your surviving members you will get if defeated.

c) I have never had my chest robbed by the AI. But in scenarios like ambush or sneak attack when your carts are next to each other in the middle of battle I think the AI might take a look.

3. The AI warband only mirrors the number of heros and henchmen. The heros varies from yours so even if you bring 2 champions for example there is no gurantee the AI chooses 2 nr. 3 heros. But the AI will never bring imrpessive if you dont and always bring one if you do.

4. Not sure if I understand this but if you are talking about failing all alone test then they need to have a free path to disengage. It can be wierd sometimes when it looks like they should have enough space but it is not.

a) not sure what you mean

b) It should but I dont think it does, or if it does it is not dependable. I have had few people flee right past my ambush stanced warrior with out triggering.

c) I think not

5. I think not, had not thought about it though. Think you just need 2+ to trigger all alone save to be made.

6. Roaming deamons have a chance to appear on brutal and deadly missions. They will pick their targets at random I find it. Sometimes they do you a favor sometimes not so much...

a) Dont think so

b) They only show up on brutal and deadly yes but they are always considered normal difficulty buff wise.

7. It has nothing to do with the users leadership no. Insult is melee resistance lowering debuff, if you are talking about threaten that is:
"The Target must be engaged with the user and have enough Offense Point to perform a melee Attack. The target takes a leadership tests with a -10% penalty. On failure, it is forced to use Offense Points to attack the user. "
You can see that the target must take leadership test with -10% penalty. So he rolls his leadership with - 10%.

8. Picking random skills sounds dreadfull :p I mean you can skill people in heavy armor even if they can't use heavy armor etc.

Here is a great builder site:

Here is a good site to read all about the skills.

9. Sadly no. Every warband you play is randomly generated to match your raiting and set up.

If you suffer a critical hit you get a debuff that lowers your hit chance and increeses the chance of a bad wound or fatality if you fall out of action. If you do not fall out of action your deep wound takes 2 days to heal. And it does not matter how many deep wound you suffer, it is always 2 days.

a) This depends on your build. Critical hits are very strong. But you might want some tanky warriors to lock enemies in combat and survive few rounds even 1 vs 2. Then you might want some cannons that can dual wield and try to stack up as many crits as they can. But they will be squishy.

b) As I said above, getting critical hit gives you deep wound. I think each deep wound makes your warrior 5% more likely to suffer grave injury or fatality.

10. I do not believe the AI uses perception. You can set your self up so that if an AI would try to charge you they do be blocked by a trap. Now I have not really read much about trap but I think they can trigger twice and have the same effect.

11. This is situational. Ambush and charge are based on movement. So say if you are mercs and have a Champion wearing heavy armor his ambush wount reach far. So if you are against say skaven with high movment their charge would always out distance your ambush. That would mean 2 OP waisted. I very often leavy my unengaged warriors in defencive stances, but usually only if they have a good 45%+ chance to dodge/parry.

12. Yes of course. If you want to make the most of your days, training new warriors for different styles. I often just get few essential skills on the way from rank 1 to 10. Then I just put it in reserve and start to skill up. Spending 20+ skillpoints can take many mordheims days :)

Income is not a problem once you reach high rank. Once you start looting purples to sell pluse your factions starts to pay up to 100% more for wyrdstone.
You do only pay upkeep for the warriors that actually did a mission. You do not pay any upkeep on days you dont fight and for warriors in reserve.

13. The Idol does not much vs the AI I find. I usually do not use pray unless there are wyrdstone close by which happens every know and then. But in PvP it plays a bigger part as it lowers moral. I have probably won 2 games vs undead just becauce of idol.

Hope that helped a little... :)


Re: Questions about AI, tactics and mechanics

Postby Blueshoe » 26 November 2016, 21:57

I'll just add a little more random info i've learned, These are numbered for ease of reading but not correlated to OPs numbered questions.

1. This is a fantastic guide that explains a lot. ... =463157178

2. Yes, getting debuffed from picking up wrydstone sucks but you have to do it. Collecting stones is the purpose of the game, more so then leveling your guys, and maybe even to leveling your warband. Your guys are going to way out-level your ability to afford skills even if you pick up every stone you see. When I pick up stones I first try to use a character that won't be in melee. (ie. caster or ranged). I then will pick up stones with my henchmen and finally my melee heros. Of coarse if you know you will have 2-3 rounds before combat you might as well fill up the hero slots first. When you get to a point where you have henchmen and heros who can reliably dodge/parry, you can often beat the last couple enemies down to a sliver of health, then just "hold" them there alive as you don't hit back. This can give you 3-5 rounds to send everyone else off and collect loot. Finally, if you play witchhunter, the warrior priest has a starting spell that will remove wrydstone buffs.

3. One important tip. If it's a melee henchmen or hero that's going to stay in battle, get the "resilient" skill buy level 6-7. Nothing will kill you faster than crits. Shield specialist is great for henchmen (its cheap). Heavy armor + know Mordheim are eventual musts for henchmen that wear heavy armor. Mobility is really king in Mordheim. Often one of your specific class skills is also good for a henchmen (and always cheap). I also like to give my henchmen onslaught or prowl but some people don't ambush as much as I do.

4. First thing in a match check the enemy wagon on the map so you know who you are fighting. Unless you are actively hiding your men well, the skaven will find you in less than 3 turns and often they will have line of sight on you in one. As soon as any enemy has line of sight on one of your guys you need to be bringing your band together and planning a defense spot.

The way i want every engagement to start for me is: I see a enemy which will reach me during his turn latter in the ladder. I set up a henchmen ambush, making sure the enemy will be able to get close enough to trigger it. My heros then use the "delay" action, several times if need be. The enemy moves and triggers my ambush. My ambusher attacks back if he wasn't creamed by the initial counter of the enemy. If he was badly hurt, then he just skips his attack. Next, my delayed heros turns come back up and they both wail on the now helpless enemy. NEW ROUND-I can now disengage my henchmen if he is hurt badly and send him off to collect stones. My 2 heros now get to attack again while the enemy is still helpless. So with 1 henchmen attack and 2 heros wailing away for 2 rounds, the enemy is usually dead before he gets to move again. Rinse, repeat if possible. (Morale of the story -the "delay" action is huge and probably your biggest advantage over the AI. AI never delays.)

5. Against skaven I often will stay hidden and let them collect stones because I know I will never get to them before they do. I'll be sneaky, try and make my way closer to their wagon if possible. When they see me I'll fight it out and hope to loot stones from their corpses. If you stay hidden, they will pick up every stone on the map. However, they may also chose to deposit them back in their wagon.. That is why i try and get close enough to the wagon that I can raid it as the match comes to an end. My last skaven match the skaven had collected 20 of 21 stones. I was able to "hold" their gutter runner and a couple henchmen with my guys for a few round which allowed me to send a couple guys off to their wagon. When i checked it, they had 15 stones in it. Made 121 weight on a "good wrydstone" rating that trip. PLUS, you get the added benefit of when you loot stones from corpses or wagons, no matter how many you add to your inventory, you get only one wyrdstone effect roll.

6. Try and keep all your guys close to the same initiative. I alternate weapons and/or medium/heavy armor to make this happen. It changes initial engagement tactics when you have high vs low initiative but other than that, having low or high initiative doesn't really matter. Having most of your guys close to the same initiative does.

7. Always train up an extra group along with your main group. You will need to use them while your main guys are training (high level skills can take 4 days.) But mainly, you want to do this so when you lose one of your main guys your not throwing in a level 0 when everyone else is level 6+. A level 0 hero in a 6-7 man band of average level 6 guys is going to be targeted hard by the AI and he isn't going to have a level 0 to match yours. His might be 4 or 5. Additionally, you will want a 10 man crew to do story missions. The AI ha a set crew for those and doesn't match what you bring.

When I get the reserve slots I run one group of 7 (my main guys -one color) and one group of 6 (second crew-a different color). My main guys get more skills and are mainly higher level but the other crew, which started at 0, does catch up. My second group runs 1 leader, 1 hero, 1 impressive and 3 henchmen. The impressive gets the vast amount of money spent to skills in this group. The better pimped your impressive, the better she will own in story missions.

8. I suggest you master explorer and librarian for warband skills. Explorer for obvious reasons and librarian for finding formula early on. It can be a huge advantage, especially for casters.

9. Story missions can be tough. Do not do them until your rating is significantly higher then what it suggests. They can take several hours and you will face demons and or enemy impressives. Even though I don't like regular matches with impressives, I chose to level and take an impressive on all story missions for this reason.

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