Allot of bad mistakes in this game

General discussion with other Mordheim: City of the Damned players.
valle1

Re: Allot of bad mistakes in this game

Postby valle1 » 04 December 2015, 18:21

The strategy is to keep my shooters out of combat (ofcourse) and in a preferred high position while my tanks take the damage and hopefully deal a good deal back.
So, you are trying to use a Skaven warband using Merc tactics?
Really?

Well, that explains a lot.......

That isn't playing to your strengths.... Skaven specialise in hit and run, ganging up on an enemy and taking him down together.

Skaven neither have the ranged capabilities or the toughness of Mercs to make this work effectively.
(funny how the warbands in these missions are always set up for that perticular fight)
They aren't. I've often encountered heavily ranged warband in close ranged situations.
This is not a test of my stratetic skills, its not only game ruining its also makes no sense whatsoever.
Then WHY did you accept that mission.... you had the choice to choose a different one on the campaign map. You CHOOSE one with the risk of starting close. Other than the risk of ambush, that is the ONLY way you start that close.

It is a test of your TACTICAL (stratetic skills is long term planning, IE setting up skills on warriors e.t.c.) skills to choose the deployments which are better for your warband on the deployment screen. You clearly failed this test.
So they got scared of the ghostly town crier? how did they all end within charge range of one another then?.
Because they fled in random directions through the streets and ran into each other?
I dont even expect the game to be odds on all the time, I play allot of dicegames in real life such as whfb and ofcourse mordheim and im used to weird dice rolls, but this happens with such frequncy that it defy all odds. Over 10 or more hours played the rolls should even themselves somewhat out, but they dont.
Again, I've seen this almost exactly in every game of this type I've every played. Human brains are designed to see patterns even where none exist except those created by randomness.
The reason I dont think I need to provide proof is because you can test this yourself, so can any of you. Play 10 games and do the math on the odds in that game, then you have your proof, otherwise, if you dont want to do that work, disregard my acusation, its actually quite simple.
We have and we've all said we think you are talking nonsense for the most part.
So its your tests vs our tests... so its back to you to provide proof.
Pre-patch, using the log, 1 in 21 of my 95% chances where missing according to the log files. As this was only over a couple of battles its not the best sample in the world but it was very close to the expected numbers.
I lose 4-6 warriors and I have no way to replace them so its back to square one to often
If you lose 4 warriors in ANY fight vs the AI, you've screwed up REALLY REALLY badly.

Of my warbands, TOTAL number of out of actions against:
Sisters (Rank 10) - 10
Skaven (Rank 7) - 8
Mercs (Rank 7) - 4

So you are talking about losing in ONE game half the number I've lose in all my games with Skaven total so far.

The problem here is with YOU, not the game.

You are trying to use a Skaven Warband like a Merc warband AND selecting missions likely to deploy you close to the enemy.
Thats two MASSIVE mistakes.....

Skaven should never ever accept those deployments, you have just made your speed advantage useless and exposed your weakness of reduced hp/crit resist to the enemy....
In the end it comes down to this, in my view you are either huge fans of this game and can see no wrong with it,
I see plenty wrong with the game (check my posts from beta), I just don't agree with you on this. You are certainly exaggerating a lot!
A last question though, are there anyone who knows how to spot those melee missions I mentioned? It would improve my gaming experience to the point where I could enjoy the game if I could find a way around those.
It gives you a description of the deployment for each mission on the campaign screen when you hover over it.
You sir, are the king of mordheim!!! ofcourse warplock pistols are utter cr*p and the fact that they deal 60+ damage and with the right skills and gear can crit on 48% is not worth considering. You tried to make me look silly with those trolling comments and succeeded in ridiculling yourself, and for your information I have a 95% winning percentage using skaven like that (note that I have never complained about the difficulty of the game, but rather that one mission which takes out 4-6 guys injured when it happens). On the one point where you actually tried to be of any help however, I am still none the wiser. Its true that you get a small describtion of the mission, but it dosnt say exactly what the missions is about. For instance if the tekst says that the warband is scattered then it can mean that they are scattered all over the map, I have no problem with those missions, but it can also mean that they are scattered and start within charge range of one another I have tried to remember the name of those missions and avoiding them, but it seems that there are several like it with different names, so they still pop up once in a while. I guess I will just have to write them all down when I come across them, so I never get them again, but someone might have encountered an easier way to get around the problem.

Astralwyrm
Posts: 256
Joined: 08 July 2015, 11:47

Re: Allot of bad mistakes in this game

Postby Astralwyrm » 04 December 2015, 18:44

When I play Skaven i try to stick to a walk in the fog and rivals in the ruins. I try to avoid vision of dread and the horrors of mordheim but most of all the haunter in the darkness and the cache has a habit of boxing you in with nowhere to go. Not sure about others, I've done ok doing scavenger.
Last edited by Astralwyrm on 05 December 2015, 01:45, edited 3 times in total.

valle1

Re: Allot of bad mistakes in this game

Postby valle1 » 04 December 2015, 19:31

When i play Skaven i try to stick to a walk in the fog and rivals in the ruins. I try to avoid vision of dread and the horror of mordheim (or something) and the cache has a habit of boxing you in with nowhere to go. Not sure about others, i've done ok doing scavenger.
That might just be the solution to my problem, thank you. :)

drenzul
Posts: 187
Joined: 29 September 2015, 12:19

Re: Allot of bad mistakes in this game

Postby drenzul » 04 December 2015, 22:20

One decent ranged weapon does not make a side capable of playing a particular way.

Only your heros can use pistols, which with a 4/6 layout, means either ALL your heroes are shooters or some of your shooters are henchmen with skuriken.

Either way, its not how the Skaven play, so if you try and play a warband in a style that doesn't suit it, then you will make the game more difficult for yourself. Its not hard to understand.

Some of the merc ranged weapons can put out massive damage at far longer ranges than warplock pistols, meaning your archers don't have to get as close to the enemy. The merc tanks are a fair amount tougher than skaven as well.
and for your information I have a 95% winning percentage using skaven like that (note that I have never complained about the difficulty of the game, but rather that one mission which takes out 4-6 guys injured when it happens)
Woot, big for you. I've got 100% across all three warbands..... Beating the AI isn't exactly difficult. There is NEVER a case in this game you will lose 4+ guys unless YOU have made a massive mistake except maybe a deadly difficulty ambush + demon. You can deny it all you want, but its true.
[ For instance if the tekst says that the warband is scattered then it can mean that they are scattered all over the map, I have no problem with those missions, but it can also mean that they are scattered and start within charge range of one another/quote]

Well, yes, that is what random means.... its random.
Why do you need to remember anything? It tells you how the teams are deployed in the text. Avoid the ones mentioning random deployment and you should be fine..... I gave you all the advice you actually needed, if you can unable to read the text the game puts in your face before you select a mission, well that is your problem.

You literally can not accept a mission without the game displaying the text telling you how the two teams would be deployed.

Now you've got two choices.

You can either read the advice you've been given OR you can keep going. If you like your playstyle, well thats fine, but be aware you aren't playing the optimal method for your Skaven. Sure it'll work but you are putting yourself at a relative disadvantage.

Most Skaven teams have 1-2 shooters at most (GR + Warlock). Like rats, you are meant to swarm a target in melee (With the skaven skill swarm you get +hit and +crit chance bonuses when you have 2+ skaven in melee with the same enemy), kill him before the enemy can move in on your and then move on to the next target.

Twahn
Posts: 178
Joined: 20 November 2014, 22:49

Re: Allot of bad mistakes in this game

Postby Twahn » 04 December 2015, 23:23

You tried to make me look silly with those trolling comments and succeeded in ridiculling yourself, and for your information I have a 95% winning percentage using skaven like that (note that I have never complained about the difficulty of the game, but rather that one mission which takes out 4-6 guys injured when it happens).
You should listen to drenzul. He makes good observations that could help your game. He's not trying to make you look look silly, that's you doing that with your wild exaggerations and game blaming.

My OOA numbers are similarly low like drenzul's. 4 to 6 in a single mission. Only once in a campaign mission where I got pasted, and although it's a hard mission it was still totally my fault. I was ill prepared.

You say that you're not saying the game is too hard, but that's exactly what you're saying really.
Melee guys at the front, ranged guys at the back. Sure. That's TACTICS 101. Bad deployments happen, and they can be brutal. What's your STRATEGY for dealing with them? Strategies do exist, and people have mentioned what they try to do about it for you.

valle1

Re: Allot of bad mistakes in this game

Postby valle1 » 05 December 2015, 07:40

neither Skaven, nor any other race are bound to one perticular way of playing. What a rediculus thing to say. Some warbands might have better options in melee than shooting, true, (but that dosnt include skaven which does very well at shooting), that is dosnt mean that they have to play a certain way, there are for instance certain ways to set up a melee group as well, and even thinking that all skaven can do is gang up makes me doudt your strategic level, 100% success rate or not. Skaven can do just fine with shooting, just as they can in the real tapletop version which I highly doubt you have even played to make such a stament, and they dont need more than 1 good ranged weapon to do so. On one hand you say that it cant be done and yet on the other you say that the AI are easy so it dosnt matter anyway. Well, the problem was the mission where you risked meating are hardcore chaos warband that gang rapes you from round 1 remember? Im sure your merc shooting warband goes out of that fight without a dent in their armour, because by your logic, they are made for shooting and as such they can take a charge by several chaos guys much better... Im sorry, but its utter nonsense, if you play a shooting warband no matter what race, you are screwed in such a scenario, so dont try to make this about wrong tactics for certain warbands because your just all out wrong.

We already got an official patch today that fixed the other part of the problem I raised, odds that were way off, something you said didnt exist right? Well woopty doo, there you have it. You and me see things very different, and to be honest I dont think you know what you talk about so there is no reason for this discussion to go on. You are ofcourse welcome to reply to this post, but I wont be replying to anymore of yours out of fear that this thread turns into a personal mud slinging contest, not just from you both from both of us and I have no interrest to take anymore part in that.

Sjaugust1
Posts: 30
Joined: 15 October 2015, 00:25

Re: Allot of bad mistakes in this game

Postby Sjaugust1 » 05 December 2015, 13:50

Obviously the OP never played Xcom...

drenzul
Posts: 187
Joined: 29 September 2015, 12:19

Re: Allot of bad mistakes in this game

Postby drenzul » 05 December 2015, 14:36

even thinking that all skaven can do is gang up makes me doudt your strategic level,
More wild exaggeration. No-one said that. I said they specialise in it. Your tactic actually stops you using the Skaven's main strength.
Some warbands might have better options in melee than shooting, true, (but that dosnt include skaven which does very well at shooting),
Yes it does, Mercs are superior at range than Skaven because they have better ranged options (hunting rifle, crossbow e.t.c.) that have a longer range than warplock pistols and similar damage.
They also have better tanks.

They are literally superior in every way at the tactic you are using.

Not that Skaven are BAD at ranged combat, they just aren't as good as Mercs and they are literally the worst tanks in game at the moment.
Skaven can do just fine with shooting, just as they can in the real tapletop version which I highly doubt you have even played to make such a stament
Started playing Warhammer games in 1994, played Warhammer, 40k, Necromunda, Bloodbowl (actually started bloodbowl in '91, the original version with the 3 piece polystyrene board) and Mordheim.

Not that its relevant as thats a very different game, in that Skaven are as tough as a human, its just that their Ld suffers. That isn't true in this game where they have less HP and crit resistance than humans.
On one hand you say that it cant be done and yet on the other you say that the AI are easy so it dosnt matter anyway.
Again, wild exaggeration. We didn't say it couldn't be done, we said its not playing to the strengths of Skaven. Also we said its easy to beat the AI, which is very different from winning lots of games with very few people going OOA.
Well, the problem was the mission where you risked meating are hardcore chaos warband that gang rapes you from round 1 remember?
As we said, you can choose deployments where this is impossible.
Im sure your merc shooting warband goes out of that fight without a dent in their armour, because by your logic, they are made for shooting and as such they can take a charge by several chaos guys much better... Im sorry, but its utter nonsense, if you play a shooting warband no matter what race, you are screwed in such a scenario, so dont try to make this about wrong tactics for certain warbands because your just all out wrong.
More wild exaggeration.
Human shooters have a larger chance of surviving if ambushed by melee due to their greater HP and crit resistance. That makes quite a big difference. Again, the biggest problem here was that you are choosing the wrong deployment to start that close.
Either way you are in a bad situation sure, but a Merc warband has a better chance of coming out of it alive.

And sure..... you can believe all you want that Skaven are going to be as good as Mercs at the tactic the Mercs are SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED TO BE BEST AT..... but thats your deluded belief.

Simple fact is if you are going to ignore the strengths and weaknesses of your warband, your are going to take more casualties than someone who plays to their strengths.

Skirmishing, Flanking and Swarming are what the Skaven do best. Your tactic basically makes it impossible for the Skaven to do at least 2 of those effectively.
We already got an official patch today that fixed the other part of the problem I raised, odds that were way off, something you said didnt exist right?
Since the patch I've had more misses in a row at 95% hit chance than before the patch..... I couldn't say if the randomness if better or worse after the patch from such a small sample, but if what I've seen so far holds true, it does what you were complaining about MORE not less now.

valle1

Re: Allot of bad mistakes in this game

Postby valle1 » 07 December 2015, 15:48

Just an update on the annoying mission that shooting warbands want to avoid... This can happen to any normal mission which is why I never really found out which to avoid. Today I entered "a walk in the fog" which is normally a fine mission for shooting warbands only to find myself locked in a building surrounded by a melee team. When you get these special missions they will show a big red cross or a skull on the loading screen.

User avatar
Shadowsprite
Posts: 22
Joined: 22 November 2015, 20:13

Re: Allot of bad mistakes in this game

Postby Shadowsprite » 07 December 2015, 16:05

Just an update on the annoying mission that shooting warbands want to avoid... This can happen to any normal mission which is why I never really found out which to avoid. Today I entered "a walk in the fog" which is normally a fine mission for shooting warbands only to find myself locked in a building surrounded by a melee team. When you get these special missions they will show a big red cross or a skull on the loading screen.
if you REALLY want to avoid those, you can alt+F4 when the stage is loading, if you see that red cross/skull, and it will not load that map up. You can then try loading it up again after starting the game back up and most of the time it's no longer an ambush. Rinse repeat until you get the map that you actually chose (walk in the fog in this case).
But that's of course, if you don't mind a bit of "save-scumming", sort of...


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