Possessed Heroes Feel Underpowered

Discuss about the Cult of the Possessed warriors, builds, skills, equipment, strategy and more!
Doom
Posts: 22
Joined: 04 December 2015, 17:57

Re: Possessed Heroes Feel Underpowered

Postby Doom » 10 January 2016, 22:49

>>Consider clawed feet (MV 9), + extra limb (+10% damage, + bonus) + extra face (+15% dodge) and you've got a stupidly fast, really hard to kill impressive that does as much damage as pretty much anything else<<

QED...the best argument "if you get lucky you get something that does as much as anything else." That's...what I said, you have to get lucky to break even. While you're waiting 10 levels and hoping to get lucky, the other groups get things that work right out of the box.

Similarly, the argument that "the Chaos Sorcerer, when pumped up properly, is as good as the 2nd tier heroes of the other groups" is again reinforcing the point: Chaos doesn't have much.

Again, yes, I concede there are counter-arguments of edge cases and lucky breaks and special scenarios where Chaos breaks even, but...otherwise, yuck.

The latest kick in the g'nads: my Possessed just got a second mutation, so no hands. So...no armor, feeble attacks, can't run away, and can't even be used as a mule to carry stuff. Bonus: he's forced to waste OP since he's forced to use both weapons. LOLBBQ!!!11!! Yeah, i know, "but if you face a bunch of guys with daggers, leadership 3, and don't attack, Possessed as *AWESOME*" is a counter-argument...but realistically, Chaos is hard mode.

MANoob
Posts: 15
Joined: 08 January 2016, 16:14

Re: Possessed Heroes Feel Underpowered

Postby MANoob » 11 January 2016, 03:10

Spawn with the right mutations does not simply break even, it is the strongest impressive overall.

Magister is not equal to "2nd tier" heroes, imo him, matchiarch and scaven sorc are the stronest leaders overall.

Posessed can be screwed by mutations badly, but even with crap mutations you can make them a sidestep tank that provides a pretty powerful fear aura. Overall I would advise getting them lvl 5+ as hired swords with 2 known mutations. If you hate fishing for good mutations just promote a couple of bretheren - they make very good ranged units as they can reach introspection mastery (3 headshots a turn?) with intelligence training and even wear heavy armor which most high BS units are not capable of (not saying that you necessarily should).

Doom
Posts: 22
Joined: 04 December 2015, 17:57

Re: Possessed Heroes Feel Underpowered

Postby Doom » 11 January 2016, 05:33

I'm obviously missing something. How do you make the fear aura effective?

MANoob
Posts: 15
Joined: 08 January 2016, 16:14

Re: Possessed Heroes Feel Underpowered

Postby MANoob » 11 January 2016, 17:34

Well -30% to hit is huge, even if it doesn't work all the time on average it's pretty significant. Its obviously better vs low leadership enemies like scaven. Make sure to check enemy fear resist before deciding whom to engage. But you can make it work even against a very high leadership faction like sisters by using runes of dismay on your weapons (-12% chance to resist fear, terror, all alone on hit, stackable). Synergises nicely with a full melee warband too since you can often force all alone checks on enemies with your numbers, while adding fear from posessed and terror from the spawn on top. Can't say for pvp, but this works fairly well for pve as it shuts down enemy melee completely most of the time.

MiniaAr
Posts: 110
Joined: 17 October 2014, 08:41

Re: Possessed Heroes Feel Underpowered

Postby MiniaAr » 13 January 2016, 10:09

This is the build I'd like for a Possessed Leader.
He is a Dodge/Melee resist tank, with good damage and supporting abilities: Insult, Demoralise & Overpower. What do you think?

Unit profile: Possessed

Attributes:
===========
Strength: 15
Toughness: 12
Agility: 13
Leadership: 15
Intelligence: 4
Alertness: 9
Weapon Skill: 15
Ballistic Skill: 3
Accuracy: 12

Skills:
=======
Fear Basic, Born Leader Mastery, Defensive Stance Mastery, Overpower Mastery, Insult Mastery, Demoralize Basic, Sidestep Basic, Avoid Basic, Awareness Basic

Mutations:
==========
Claw Foot, Extra Limb - Blade, Extra Face

Books:
==========
Tome of Abilities, Physical Grimore

Equipment:
==========
Helmet, Clothing, Armband, Armband

Arganan
Posts: 54
Joined: 14 February 2015, 13:38

Re: Possessed Heroes Feel Underpowered

Postby Arganan » 13 January 2016, 17:32

Your possessed Leaderbuild looks interesting, but when it comes to numbers you only get 50% melee resist with defence stance. This is not much. So you lose to much dodge when you try to achieve both.
You could easily skipp 1 point in strength and toughness to get the 15 agy to master sidestep. this would bring much more defence then defstance and sidestep.

I like the idea of using insult mastery. The possessed Leadership is made for it :)

I also thought about a possessed as an leader but i found a realy good argument to skip this idea. This was the skill "order". This one is only accessable to leaders and grands a attack for the traget. So dual whield heros benefit the most from this. So a magister can cast weapon of destruction + order on a possessed or spawn. A possessed can be a good dd with dodge. So both would work very fine together. You lose this advantage, when you take a possessed as a leader.

drenzul
Posts: 187
Joined: 29 September 2015, 12:19

Re: Possessed Heroes Feel Underpowered

Postby drenzul » 16 January 2016, 01:27


QED...the best argument "if you get lucky you get something that does as much as anything else." That's...what I said, you have to get lucky to break even. While you're waiting 10 levels and hoping to get lucky, the other groups get things that work right out of the box.
Errr what?

You get far MORE than anyone else can get for 2 skill points. Its not 'lucky to get even', its 'lucky to get far better than anyone else can get'.

Show me ANYONE who can get +2mv for 2 skill points other than Chaos.... oh right you can't. Because only chaos can.
Show me ANYONE who can get +10% damage + a debuff for 2 skill points other than Chaos.... oh right you can't. Because only chaos can.
Show me ANYONE else who can get an impressive that has MV10 without sacrificing combat capability? Oh right, you can't.... only Chaos do and they get it with no weakness.

And its not luck, its just a grind to repeatedly level the warriors or cycle through hired swords till you get one.
Hence why it's grind mode not hard mode. Its not like it's a challenge to grind AI warbands.

Chaos EASILY have the biggest set of advantages in this game IF they get the right mutations.

There are a few ways to nerf their chances of resisting fear, but given its -30% hit chance if they miss it, if you've built your Possessed for +Agi +WS, so has quite a lot of melee resist as well, anyone who fails that test is going to have real serious problems hitting him. Its nice but its not something I would ever try and rely on.

Curse of Chaos springs to mind from your Magister, some wyrdstone debuffs.
However if you could make sure it was applied consistently, it would be quite OP!

I'd make sure you have strong blow (applies to all DW guys), its +50% damage for +1 OP, so until you get 9 OP (2+3+4) for 3 attacks, you can do two strong blows instead (3+4 = 7!) for the same damage. The -parry chance on it (ok doesn't help possessed) and using it after a charge (which stops you getting 3 attacks), makes it still useful at level 10 as well. Apart from losing the 3rd chance to hit, 2 strong blows are nearly good as 3 attacks anyway.

Doom
Posts: 22
Joined: 04 December 2015, 17:57

Re: Possessed Heroes Feel Underpowered

Postby Doom » 17 January 2016, 06:28

Ouch!

>>Show me ANYONE who can get +2mv for 2 skill points other than Chaos.... oh right you can't. Because only chaos can.
Show me ANYONE who can get +10% damage + a debuff for 2 skill points other than Chaos.... oh right you can't. Because only chaos can.
Show me ANYONE else who can get an impressive that has MV10 without sacrificing combat capability? Oh right, you can't.... only Chaos do and they get it with no weakness. <<

Uh, two of these are the SAME thing: big bonus to movement. Absolutely, high movement is good to have but...not on just a single figure. Being all alone and getting killed because your support is a turn or two behind is *bad*. I doubt you'll agree that bad things are not good, but...honest, they are.

Now, if I was to take your repetition on the Impressive seriously, we have two issues: first is the "all alone with no support" problem, having your best figure killed is a *bad* thing, although once again I suspect opinions will vary. The second is: you don't get that much out of movement that high, especially on an impressive. In the game I'm talking about, Impressives can't withdraw from combat, so you may as well make the move 50,000,000,000 for all the good it does you once combat is joined. Toss in that you usually won't need all that much movement to close the gap, and, yeah, it' s no big deal. You may as well say Chaos has a perk that lets the maximum hit probability be 95.01%, and that makes it overpowered. No, it doesn't, it's just a cute little curlicue that, more often than not, is irrelevant.

The second bonus, I'm not even sure what mutation you're talking about...the weapon/arm mutation, perhaps Again, no. First off, those arm mutations means you no longer have a choice about weapons, it's armband or nothing. In my opinion "no choice" is worse than "choice". My warband is level 9, and I've got one magic armband to "share" among 5 different troops that are *forced* to use it. My poor guy with shield mastery had the wrong arm mutate...d'oh. Losing skills like that is bad, but I suspect you'll disagree on this issue as well.

If we go this stupid route, then we may as well say Skaven are the absolute best, because their Swarm ability gives a huge bonus to critical hit that nobody else gets...but we can all agree this form of argument is foolishness that distracts from the points I've made.

drenzul
Posts: 187
Joined: 29 September 2015, 12:19

Re: Possessed Heroes Feel Underpowered

Postby drenzul » 17 January 2016, 21:19

Stop using logical fallacies.

Swarm is no more powerful than the other racial skills.
Mutations are directly more powerful than ANY skill but only cost you 2 skill points that a big difference.

Extra Arm Mutations:

- Extra Limb Axe --- Increase melee damage by 10% --- Reduce enemy dodge and parry chances by 10% --- Melee attacks bypass 10% armor absorption
- Extra Limb Blade --- Increase melee damage by 10% --- Reduce enemy dodge and parry chances by 10% --- Increase melee crit chances by 5%
- Extra Limb Mace --- Increase melee damage by 10% --- Reduce enemy dodge and parry chances by 10% --- Increase hit chances by 10%

Tell me that isn't an awesome buff for the cost of 2 Skill points... please!

Claw Foot --- Increase athletic checks by 10% --- Increase movement by 2 meters --- Increase charge and ambush movement by 2 meters

Mordhem knowledge, the only thing everyone else can get to increase MV, increases it by 1.... for the same cost. Not only do you get a bonus to climb,leap e.t.c. checks, but you also get a charge/ambush range increase which is also very handy.
Given large creatures often have to take a longer route to the target due to doors, jump points they can't use e.t.c. this is very handy and makes sure, when you set him on ambush, he will actually ambush the target instead of them getting the charge on him.
Which is even more useful when combined with terror since it takes off used OP first if they fail the check, if they have charged, they have already used the OP before they are taken off, so they don't lose as many.

Most of the Mutations are either equal to or better than a Mastered skill, so save you 4sp effectively.

I agree that early on Chaos are weak, it seems you are at that stage.
Equipment can be a right swine, the bracers as you mentioned are a pain for that.

Once you've got past that stage and recycled heros till you get the ones you want, they become a LOT more powerful.
It just takes a long time..... building heroes up to level 10 and hoping they get the right mutation.

Orkhan
Posts: 75
Joined: 04 September 2015, 21:22

Re: Possessed Heroes Feel Underpowered

Postby Orkhan » 20 January 2016, 08:47

The latest kick in the g'nads: my Possessed just got a second mutation, so no hands. So...no armor, feeble attacks, can't run away, and can't even be used as a mule to carry stuff. Bonus: he's forced to waste OP since he's forced to use both weapons. LOLBBQ!!!11!! Yeah, i know, "but if you face a bunch of guys with daggers, leadership 3, and don't attack, Possessed as *AWESOME*" is a counter-argument...but realistically, Chaos is hard mode.
I feel you. Yes mutations are awesome, but they restrict you to what you want to do. How good is a heroe (i.e. Mutant with +5% crit buff from Wyrdstones) with Wyrdstone horns (great) and two mutated arms when he cannot pick up items anymore? :-(

Leveling up Chaos heroes is really frustrating, because both Marauders and Possessed cannot disengage. A bad deployment (ambush, sneak attack, even horrors of mordheim) and they die quicker than you can blink.

Mutations do not only have upsides, for example arm mutations besically say "Block switch weapons" and "Block shields, two handed weapons and ranged weapons" which is a big downside. Especially when you are engaged and your heroe is running low on hp, the switch to shield + 1h can often be your saving grace.


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