Building Skaven for PvP Environments

Discuss about the Skaven of Clan Eshin warriors, builds, skills, equipment, strategy and more!
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crimsonsun
Posts: 187
Joined: 28 November 2014, 02:43

Building Skaven for PvP Environments

Postby crimsonsun » 05 January 2016, 13:33

OK so playing the AI has made me lazy and while I feel I've got some strong focused builds I've discovered some massive flaws in my overall warband's though increased Multiplayer gaming of late.

Big areas on which I need to improve - Ranged Resistance and tactics using ranged units - IE Shoot and then retreat out of sight or at least into heavy cover. Playing the AI and using Mastered Enshrouding mist has made me sloppy, against Mercs Mastered Enshrouding Mist isn't close to being effective enough alone meaning I will get torn asunder. I need ways of shutting down said ranged offence without losing my melee offensive abilities. I Actually feel the tanking builds are somewhat of a issue in this regards for rats, because you (if like myself) become over confident of there durability which while being 2nd to none in close combat isn't much against ranged, where Armour and stances build for combat do sweet fa.

Even bigger issue is magic, shutting down enemy mages and having a meaningful defence against them isn't something I have in my roster at the moment. Even with Purple Talismans enemy casters are tearing me a new one on 75% or more of casts, in a game against Sisters recently I was losing 1 1/2 members per round to comets at a far greater range than I could effectively counter. Now I screwed up initially and then I took way too long to actually realise how seriously bleak my position was and didn't rush the enemy immediately which would have been easily my best course of action, as proven by when my specialists got into the mix we hurt those sisters big time but the damage taken getting there was enough that I chose to rout (Leadership 20 Leader being 1 of 4 fighters left standing).

In addition Impressive Fighter disposal needs consideration as well as defence against them (half have armbands) in PvP play. This isn't as big an issue as the above because the large impressives are fairly avoidable for rats while the Sisters one may be a utter arse its not the melee juggernaut the others can be, however it does need handling.

I guess it comes down to build archetypes and variations so I can field controllers, tanks, support/buffing units, Melee strikers including anti dodge builds and anti parry builds, Ranged Strikers, Magical Strikers, anti magic units, ambush specialist and counter specialist, ranged/overwatch tanks for countering enemy ranged attacks, Idol Grabber & Wyrdstone gathers

So specifically I'm interested in how to overcome ranged/magically strong offensive enemy warbands and let me clarify to say a single jaw breaker build isn't going to cut it as it in no way allows you to bypass the enemy warband members defending the offending enemy. Also Skaven ranged while great for control is useless in a ranged verses ranged conflict or in an attempt at out damaging a magic/ranged focused enemy, we are not in the same league of out put. A strong merc band for example will happily have 3 heroes capable of dishing out 200damage at range far beyond what we can field one of those will do it too 2-6 targets at once. Sisters with a focused comet build could in theory dish out 20 50-80 damage comets every round.. Do the math - they do this at 45-55 yard range and retreat afterwards behind there tank screen.

Thanks for your input, I'm as much interested in the overall discussion of the best approach as I am in specific builds as I don't think its hard to build a focused fighter for either task but its how they fit in the warband as a whole, what is worth forgoing for there inclusion etc. Anyway as ever thanks for reading;
crimsonsun
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chaoticmaniac

Re: Building Skaven for PvP Environments

Postby chaoticmaniac » 05 January 2016, 19:16

Just here to say that i am curious too about more focused builds since VS ai alone the learning process is too slow.
wayting for some good posts :)

Mog
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Joined: 23 November 2014, 05:51

Re: Building Skaven for PvP Environments

Postby Mog » 06 January 2016, 09:19

I haven't played a lot of PvP so take this with a grain of salt but with both the sisters and mercenaries the tank line seems to be the main problem, so would ambush counter initiation be the way to go. There are a couple of skills that boost melee resist when ambushed. Run them on a rat with 'Hit and Run' and warp poison so the build is still functional outside of turtling scenarios.

Move up, draw out a tank, poison and disengage. One rat could pull out three tanks, then your tanks move around and flank them while your DPS rats zergling rush the back line. One of my favorite tricks vs the AI is to perception the area to find traps then draw the ambush onto the trap.

Your right about skavens' short range. Warp mist is their longest ranged ability at 30m, it's not the most damaging spell but on a sorcerer with knowledge-mordheim you could move up lay down 2-3 warp mists then fall back out of the range of the comets for a very slow boring game of attrition.

Astralwyrm
Posts: 256
Joined: 08 July 2015, 11:47

Re: Building Skaven for PvP Environments

Postby Astralwyrm » 06 January 2016, 18:45

Maybe you could disrupt the ranged units with a high mobility nightrunner armed with sticky sludge? Or even pelt them with oil bombs. <- need to get some pvp under me belt.

Ordrek
Posts: 11
Joined: 17 December 2015, 05:58

Re: Building Skaven for PvP Environments

Postby Ordrek » 07 January 2016, 07:04

You can furyhe mitigate ranged with Careful Approach. My melee resist builds take this as the 4th mastery. Along with Enshrouding Mists, they push 135 ranged resist, and more while in melee.

However, magic is still a major issue... comets in particular. I have been attempting to build mutants with Demon Soul that can get magic resist in the mid 60s, but even that isnt fool proof and takes a ton of luck to develope. Add the fact that most skaven warbands will never have access to mutants and the picture looks bleak against magic. I hate having to hope they invoke wrath for my survival. If your best hope is in the other guy having bad dice, you're in trouble.

That said, shooting does great damage and is a solid way to chew up casters or what is guarding them. One guy built for head shot and another for Numbing Poison + Pinning shot is excellent crowd control/damage/debuff support. An enemy that cant move or use defensive stances can be picked apart at your leisurse, especially after a head shot stuns them.

Ordrek
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Joined: 17 December 2015, 05:58

Re: Building Skaven for PvP Environments

Postby Ordrek » 07 January 2016, 07:04

You can further mitigate ranged with Careful Approach. My melee resist builds take this as the 4th mastery. Along with Enshrouding Mists, they push 135 ranged resist, and more while in melee.

However, magic is still a major issue... comets in particular. I have been attempting to build mutants with Demon Soul that can get magic resist in the mid 60s, but even that isnt fool proof and takes a ton of luck to develope. Add the fact that most skaven warbands will never have access to mutants and the picture looks bleak against magic. I hate having to hope they invoke wrath for my survival. If your best hope is in the other guy having bad dice, you're in trouble.

That said, shooting does great damage and is a solid way to chew up casters or what is guarding them. One guy built for head shot and another for Numbing Poison + Pinning shot is excellent crowd control/damage/debuff support. An enemy that cant move or use defensive stances can be picked apart at your leisurse, especially after a head shot stuns them.

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crimsonsun
Posts: 187
Joined: 28 November 2014, 02:43

Re: Building Skaven for PvP Environments

Postby crimsonsun » 07 January 2016, 17:27

You can further mitigate ranged with Careful Approach. My melee resist builds take this as the 4th mastery. Along with Enshrouding Mists, they push 135 ranged resist, and more while in melee.

However, magic is still a major issue... comets in particular. I have been attempting to build mutants with Demon Soul that can get magic resist in the mid 60s, but even that isnt fool proof and takes a ton of luck to develope. Add the fact that most skaven warbands will never have access to mutants and the picture looks bleak against magic. I hate having to hope they invoke wrath for my survival. If your best hope is in the other guy having bad dice, you're in trouble.

That said, shooting does great damage and is a solid way to chew up casters or what is guarding them. One guy built for head shot and another for Numbing Poison + Pinning shot is excellent crowd control/damage/debuff support. An enemy that cant move or use defensive stances can be picked apart at your leisure, especially after a head shot stuns them.

I'd considered careful approach myself, and I'm steadily heading towards opening up mutants as an option but honestly I've not even considered that in tactical terms, same with dark souls though I'm less sure of what role they'd serve I can't already cover anyway. Yeah magic's the big one, some solid changes in my Warbands builds will protect against ranged easily enough but Skaven don't have a practical solution to magic as far as I can work out and by practical I mean one that will work on the battlefield rather than just having sound theory. Theoretically I can have a night runner with jaw break mastery and hit and run mastery ping pong between casters. practically only an idiot or the AI would allow me to get away with such tactics except in extreme situations like a Ambush or even get the initial charge without exposing myself to being taken out of action before I get a second activation with it and they are the fastest fighter in the game currently.

While the theory of what you say regarding shooting with headshots and control sounds good in practise it doesn't work well at all. The fact of the matter is ranged offensive magic damage dealers have twice or more the range we do so while its theoretically doable against sisters your still exposing yourself to get close enough in the first place, using poisons means your not going to have the SP to retreat afterwards and Sisters huddle so where there's one comet slinger the second is going to be close enough that so fragile now exposed ranged guys are going to go down before they can act again. Against Mercs its not even worth considering they out shoot us by such a margin its not even going to make them sweat.. -135% ranged resistance will work against there henchmen I believe but the marksmen heroes will l believe tear though that like it didn't exist if they tried -135+80+40 bs+10trick+10 higher ground +30 aiming +20 exploit positioning. though it should give them pause to think. However your not going to be able to get past there ranged support, with protection against ranged retaliation to get at those casters unless the other player makes an error. Our best hope against Mercs is they've not taken melee focused heroes and have gone all out on ranged as we can power though the melee henchman body guards with our strikers in no time at all but a Champion and Leader in the mix will hold us up for too long and allow those ranged guys to tear us apart at leisure (Not sure what would be more scary 2 marksmen with a debuffing mage in support removing armour and neutralising our agility or 2 warlocks and 1 marksman for spam of area damage then sniping off the survivors.

Ambush cpunter specialists - Honestly against humans I couldn't see the value in fielding more than 1 such build and even that's questionable the issue with it is that while the theory makes sense in practise humans or ones experienced with the game will only use ambush in situations where they can't be disadvantaged by it. So the only lines of movement and normally sight your likely to get are the ones trigger the ambush at a chosen choke point. The other use of ambush is to protect your engaged melee line from charges to outnumber and to prevent disengage re-engage ploys in combat for triggering all alone tests.

Consumables like sludge and Oil bombs really should be used to provide a advantage in a choke point melee that's on going, sludge is also give to my two hander builds to counter dodge and as a result is invaluable for that purpose. Finally neither provide the range to actually make a impact on the issue, now if we had some smoke bombs or poison wind globes that would be a different thing entirely.

Hmm..
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Ordrek
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Re: Building Skaven for PvP Environments

Postby Ordrek » 07 January 2016, 18:26

The shooting comment was more for the headshot guy who also has exhaustion, not the poison guy who is about keeping advancing melee units at bay.

Skaven certainly can still hit and run with shurikens. Range 25 combined eith their movement is plenty. It is tougher against merc overwatch, but that issue doesnt come up against comets. Against entrenched overwatch i would let a henchie or high RR hero absorb the shots first. My headshot runner will be speed 11 most of the time with max quick reload and Exhaustion. He has SP to spare for this very purpose.

My problem with comet spam is that no counter exists for it, other than hoping fot smites (which happen). The combination of no viable counter for the opponent and self inflicted luck-based counter for the user makes playing with or against it unsatisfying imo.

I take that back... a counter DOES exist for comets, but inly the sisters themselves have it. Sinful Speech. Unfortunately i think high end sisters hoth pose the hardest questions and provide the most answers, making them a very powerhouse faction. I play skaven because i like their speed and feel, but sister could really shut them down.

MANoob
Posts: 15
Joined: 08 January 2016, 16:14

Re: Building Skaven for PvP Environments

Postby MANoob » 08 January 2016, 16:58

I haven't been playing pvp much yet, but I think if you manage to engage without taking too much damage you should be able to have good chances of winning. Also, magic heavy builds are easily shut down by the right gear (problem here is this gear is only useful if the opponent relies on magic). Yeah, theoretically 40+ range on spells is scary, but you need to consider a few things. Firstly, if they are getting range enchants they are not getting -curse/wrath enchants, which means they are likely to blow up on like 3rd spell cast. Even with full -curse/wrath enchants casting 5 or more spells per round is really risky and the chances for the last 2 to blow you up will be really high. Without range enchants the range is 40, which is still a lot. However, most maps do not have that much of empty space. So cover is your friend. If you do not leave your guys in sight it's the enemy team that would have to move closer to have a chance to shoot, or just stay and turtle. Now if you manage to get into your shooting range (25m, should't be too difficult with your speed), you can essentially disable multiple enemies with warp poison + crippling shot (that's -6 OP we're looking at). If you use blessed with filth on your ranged characters you can also put down some decent poison hurt easily totalling to like 200 damage done by a single nightrunner (poison + physical). Magic looks like it's also easily shut down by proper enchants, seems you can get like 69% magic resist from gear alone, and there's no stat that counters it, so it's a direct nerf to enemy damage. Basically I think even trying to use offensive magic looks pointless at this point. Well, they can use runes of enervation when it comes down to melee but if it has come down to this I think things should be looking up to you.

I also don't get where some of the numbers in this theorycrafting are coming from. Say comet is ~29 average damage at level 2, at 20 int thats 46 damage on average, nowhere near 80. It's still a lot for 2 OP but the chances to blow up are also significant if you cast 5 per turn. Also, if sisters use their impressive to cast spells they are essentially hurting themselves, as she's not really any better caster than the other sisters (well, 5 more int potentially...), so it's like 250 damage per turn at best as well as a chance to screw up your impressive really bad. Properly built rat ogre can easily put out like a 1000 damage per turn. Overall I say comet build might be scary against your average pve build but can be hardcountered extremely well. I also think chaos spawn with demon soul and good MR gear backed up by WoD + order magister would be extremely tough for the sisters to deal with, but this is not a skaven strategy. If you manage to warp poison their purifiers though a sorc + rat ogre will also be nigh impossible to stop.

Against mercs the key should be to break their formation and have your melee on top of their range at which point you should win. Again, using cover, +ranged resist mist and maybe warp mist to force enemies to move should help. Warp poison + crippling shot ranged units should actually outshoot mercs pretty bad if you manage to get in range because they would be left with little to no OP to strike back. Depending on the map you can also try the heavy melee route and just bruteforce through them with sheer damage (mercs look terrible in melee and ranged damage is not really on par with optimized melee), but if they manage to set up a good choke that might not work. If you're on top of them and use the +ranged res -melee res cloud things would start to look really bad for the mercs though.

Ordrek
Posts: 11
Joined: 17 December 2015, 05:58

Re: Building Skaven for PvP Environments

Postby Ordrek » 08 January 2016, 17:38

Of course it is possible to make a build that counters any other particular build, but the opportunity costs for many of them is that they suck vs other common builds.

Can you post an anti magic build that isnt torn apart by ranged or melee? Or that simply has no clear role if the favored target isnat available to them?

The only anti magic build i can think of with a low opportu ity cost is a Sisters caster with Mastered Sinful Speech since all she gives up for it is one mastered spell.


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